[JeepnBlake]

Hello everyone,

Quick story, 04 Rubi, 143k miles, 4.10s, stock mtrs, etc all stock pretty much. My rubi seems to be lacking in the power department and I'm a little paranoid that my engine is going to crap out on me. So this thread is my planning for failure thread :lildevil: .

When the current engine goes I'll likely want more power, so here are the options I believe I have in an attempt to remain Smog legal incase I move to one of those commi states. :rotflmao:

My goals:

Increase power by a reasonable amount
Appear and function as stock. (AC, electronics, gauges, etc.)
Perform swap in my own garage (No sending car off for a week and having it built)
Retain manual transmission and transfer case.

Stroker:

I was initially thinking this would be my best option since it's basically the same engine just bigger internally. For those who are familiar with the Jargon, 81-90 crank, 4.0 "long" rods, IC944 (Keith Black's) in the .030 flavor dished 21.7 cm, 24lb injectors, Comp Cam. Not too much machine work as far as milling the head down and all that, the goal is to run on pump gas. Different intake, exhaust, etc, double roller chain.

HP: Supposedly 260, realistically 240.

Cost: $1500

The pros: Same engine essentially, emissions should be pretty easy to pass since its visibly a 4.0. Comparatively cheap, bolts back in.

The cons: Might not be powerful enough to make the swap worth it.

LsX:

I like this option because the engines are great, they're cheap, novak has really streamlined the process with all their awesome goodies. I was thinking 5.3 but it would probably be a 6.0 just because they're the same size so why not? I heard a lot of the early swaps were a royal pain because of the wiring issues between the gauges, fuel pump, DBW and loss of cruise.

HP: LS6 6.0 385-400, LM7 5.3 285-295, LQ4 6.0 300-325, LQ9 6.0 345

Cost: TBD Awaiting info from Novak

The pros: Parts availability, oem and aftermarket or performance. Novak makes all kinds of trick parts to streamlining the swap from motor mounts to adapters to wiring harness to exhaust not to mention support.

The cons: Wiring/ DIY might be a pain in the ass. Ok, Just got off the phone with Novak 9-17-10. Here's the skinny, you'll need the following:

LsX Engine (These are the recommended ones: LM7 5.3 285-295HP, L33 5.3 310HP, LQ4 6.0 300-325HP, LQ9 6.0 345HP)
Motor Mounts $165
Radiator $400
Gen I Chevy Bellhousing $150
Gauges $300 (You send in your dash and the modify it so it reads the Chevy codes, this is for TACH ONLY all others work.)
Fuel Line Kit $190
Cruise Control $300 (This is where you have to get an aftermarket kit and add it on.)
Clutch Slave Kit $220
Wiring Harness $600
Gen I Chevy Clutch Kit $200
Billet Flywheel by McCloud $350
Electric Fan Kit $300

A/C setup there are two options:

Get the current relocation setup for $600
or
Dave from Novak is currently working on a new kit that will relocate the AC pump up to where the current relocation kit is, it will pull all the accessories in tighter, and it will allow you to use the Jeep power steering pump. This kit is not available yet, Dave is currently working on it, estimated price is as much as the current AC relocation kit or cheaper.

The things in Green are available from Novak, the two things that I left white are available from them, but it was recommended that I get them off ebay or locally.

For those of you playing along here is the total that little list above:

Total: $3,775 + Engine and Misc.

LsX Swap Links:
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/tj_swap.htm
http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/jeep ... arness.htm
Utljoldjeep's swap:
viewtopic.php?t=68617


Hemi:

I thought this swap might be cool because I might have a better chance at passing smog and the wiring might not kill me quite so much and things might play together a little nicer so I could reduce the use of adapters and such. It also stays in the Jeep family so legality might be easier. This could be either the 5.7 or the 6.1 doesn't matter to me really.

HP: 5.7 340, 6.1 425

Cost: TBD help a guy out if you've done this.

The pros: Stays along the Jeep family wiring supposedly plays nicer together, the power is decent and it's a HEMI.

The cons: Most likely the most expensive of all the options since it's a Chrysler product, the 5.7 is kind of a dog until you buzz it up in the rpms a bit. I called Burnsville Offroad today 9-17-10 and they said None of the TJ transmissions bolt to the Hemi. So then I called Burnsville Offroad and they said your options are Getrag 238 Manual or Automatic. The Getrag 238 will fortunately bolt to the 241OR, so that's good. The other problem is they told me you can not get cruise to work. . With the AEV cruise does work, but again Automatic only.

Hemi Swap Links:

Pretty good detail of a DIY swap:
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/adven ... ns-343741/

Hemi Wiring:
http://www.hotwireauto.com/?page=sales-tj


Hemi VS LsX at AEV:
http://forum.aev-conversions.com/showthread.php?t=1281

TJ swap harnesses:
http://www.hotwireauto.com/?page=sales-jeep

Bellhousing & Bolt pattern swap info:
http://www.v-eight.com/tech_forum/viewt ... f=46&t=820


Here is the info I have so far, as I find out more, I'll update what I have here. Can anyone help me complete this list more, what all does one need to buy to accomplish one of these swaps. I'm looking for first hand experience from people who have done them and can tell me what I'm missing, over looking and what problems they ran into or what they would do differently.

 

[mushroomax]

5.3L or 6.0L option. Search on Pirate4x4 - tons of information. Stick with what has been proven to work....oh yeah one more thing, plan to upgrade your whole drivetrain, you can't just throw a bigger engine under the hood and call it good. I'm talking beefier transmission, t-case, etc.

 

[JeepnBlake]

5.3L or 6.0L option. Search on Pirate4x4 - tons of information. Stick with what has been proven to work....oh yeah one more thing, plan to upgrade your whole drivetrain, you can't just throw a bigger engine under the hood and call it good. I'm talking beefier transmission, t-case, etc.

You're talking to a guy who's running 2 piece axles in the AMC20 in back of their CJ7 with a 360, never popped an axle shaft in a D30, D35 or AMC20 all of which have been locked with lockrights or aussies. Realistically I'm just not very hard on stuff. I don't really believe in "When in doubt throttle out". Besides the NV3550 is rated at 300 ft/lbs from Jeep and the 241 is rated at god knows what, but if it holds up to 500 hp Cummins 6bts during truck pulls, I think I'll be ok. All that leaves us now is the driveshafts and the axles. Most of the shafts Tom Wood sells for the comp buggies are the 1310s or the 1350s so that shouldn't be an Issue. Again like I said never blown a d35 anything, so worst case scenario I'll toss in some RCVs and some Superiors out back. At that point I'd be much more worried about the R&P or the Rubi Lockers.

 

[jolivergraham]

I just decided that I want to get on the V8 boat today, so I'm extremely interested in this thread. Looking forward to following it. All I've read from Novak is that the Rubi is a fantastic platform for this type of swap.

 

[gregert12]

so here are the options I believe I have in an attempt to remain Smog legal incase I move to one of those commi states. :rotflmao:

If this is really your plan, you may want to research the emission laws in NJ, NY, Calif and probably Illinois since your options already will not pass NJ.

:lildevil:

 

[YJmyWAY]

You dont need a $1500 harness for a LSx swap. You can cut the stock harness yourself or send it off to be redone for under $500.

 

[JRTOffroad]

5.3L or 6.0L option. Search on Pirate4x4 - tons of information. Stick with what has been proven to work....oh yeah one more thing, plan to upgrade your whole drivetrain, you can't just throw a bigger engine under the hood and call it good. I'm talking beefier transmission, t-case, etc.

In mine I'm running the stock rubicon T-case, a 1350 CV / 1330 rear driveshaft, 1330 front driveshafts, ford 8.8" rear axle and rubicon 44 front. I am VERY hard on this setup and to date have broken 1 4340 d44 outer. This is on 37's with a heathly 5.9L.

The stock manual trans may or may not hold up, and the axles are far from invincible, but the stock drivetrain can take a lot of abuse. Make the swap, enjoy it, and if you break stuff upgrade.

 

[ech0sh4y]

You dont need a $1500 harness for a LSx swap. You can cut the stock harness yourself or send it off to be redone for under $500.

From where

 

[JeepnBlake]

You dont need a $1500 harness for a LSx swap. You can cut the stock harness yourself or send it off to be redone for under $500.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for.


I've got a pretty good handle on all the info for the stroker, and I'm pretty confident with all the threads I've read about LsX engines on pirate, but that's limited to the engines themselves, as far as making them function like stock in a TJ that's a different story.

 

[utljoldjeep]

You dont need a $1500 harness for a LSx swap. You can cut the stock harness yourself or send it off to be redone for under $500.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for.


I've got a pretty good handle on all the info for the stroker, and I'm pretty confident with all the threads I've read about LsX engines on pirate, but that's limited to the engines themselves, as far as making them function like stock in a TJ that's a different story.

Ok Novak will rework you LSx harness for 384.00 add 170.00 to prgram the ECM NOT 1500.00, 5 to 7 wire to get it runiing And Novak can tell you wat wire goes were. SO if you can install a radio you can finnish the wiring.


http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/jeep ... arness.htm


the rest is bolt in if your pulling the I6 and you are.

 

[utljoldjeep]

I put a build thread on here were I did a 5.3 swap in 2.5 with the part from Novak. at this point I have 16k miles on the LJ I run the stock tranny, t case rearend the fron does have a locker and 30 spline inser shafts. Stock gears 3.73 EVERY THING IS WORK NOW from the A/C to the Cruse

 

[JeepnBlake]

I put a build thread on here were I did a 5.3 swap in 2.5 with the part from Novak. at this point I have 16k miles on the LJ I run the stock tranny, t case rearend the fron does have a locker and 30 spline inser shafts. Stock gears 3.73 EVERY THING IS WORK NOW from the A/C to the Cruse

What did you have to do about your tach I think it was? I saw in your thread you had everything going but that. What was the fix?

 

[utljoldjeep]

you can send the gage cluster to redline they will mod the tach with VDO guts

 

[YJmyWAY]

From where

speartech.com

I modded my own harness using th einstructions off LT1swap.com my harness worked on the very first crank.


This is from my build thread:
Started modding the stock wiring harness. I was going to send it off to be reworked but found a great write up on lt1swap.com on how to do it yourself and save some money.

I laid out two 3'x4' plywood boards and stripped the harness and stappled it to the boards with zip ties keeping all branches seperate and plugs in their places. This made it very easy to pull wires and test for continuity.

Pulling wires from PCM connectors

Pink wires pulled and labeled

PCM wires pulled and labeled. The PCM can be programmed to control a FAN relay.

Heres a link to my full build thread.

 

[YJmyWAY]

I'm pretty confident with all the threads I've read about LsX engines on pirate, but that's limited to the engines themselves, as far as making them function like stock in a TJ that's a different story.

Get a subscription to alldatadiy they have all the diagrams for your jeep and the connector views with detailed pin outs. I promise the wiring is not difficult. I even removed the TJ ECU all together.

 

[JeepnBlake]

Conclusion




Ok, I've edited the list above yet again, with prices on everything and why there is no manual Hemi swap with any Jeep trans. Also there really isn't an easy way to get a manual trans to work with cruise on the Hemi swaps so thats out.

The LsX swaps are still somewhat expensive, and there are still a few bugs left in it (tach, cruise, and AC).

The stroker reigns supreme again for me. I can do it for less than the cost of all the stuff I need to swap in an LsX and I'll likely be able to get it up to around 250 or so hp in a naturally aspired state. If more power is necessary a turbo will be next. :lildevil:

 

[rmeredit]

Sorry to butt in, but - If somebody wanted to do the 5.3/6.0 swap w/ a NEW engine, where would they look for the engine? Does anyone sell the complete engine, not just the long block?

 

[jolivergraham]

x2!

 

[YJmyWAY]

Hello everyone,
LsX:

I like this option because the engines are great, they're cheap, novak has really streamlined the process with all their awesome goodies. I was thinking 5.3 but it would probably be a 6.0 just because they're the same size so why not? I heard a lot of the early swaps were a royal pain because of the wiring issues between the gauges, fuel pump, DBW and loss of cruise.

HP: LS6 6.0 385-400, LM7 5.3 285-295, LQ4 6.0 300-325, LQ9 6.0 345

Cost:

Cruise Control $300 (This is where you have to get an aftermarket kit and add it on.)

Dave from Novak is currently working on a new kit that will relocate the AC pump up to where the current relocation kit is, it will pull all the accessories in tighter, and it will allow you to use the Jeep power steering pump. This kit is not available yet, Dave is currently working on it, estimated price is as much as the current AC relocation kit or cheaper.

Cruise control is easy if you get a DBW motor. I made a simple switch panel with a toggle switch, two push buttons, and a LED. I tapped into the wires on the TAC module and the cruise control works perfectly and best of all it only cost me a few bucks for the buttons and switch.

I reused my old power steering lines to the chevy pump so I have nothing invested in my steering setup.

Sorry to butt in, but - If somebody wanted to do the 5.3/6.0 swap w/ a NEW engine, where would they look for the engine? Does anyone sell the complete engine, not just the long block?

I got my engine off Ebay (Bow Auto) they are up in MD. I had it dropped shipped to my house: total $1K shipped not bad for a guaranteed to run warranty and all the wiring and accessories included.

 

[JeepnBlake]

Hello everyone,
LsX:

I like this option because the engines are great, they're cheap, novak has really streamlined the process with all their awesome goodies. I was thinking 5.3 but it would probably be a 6.0 just because they're the same size so why not? I heard a lot of the early swaps were a royal pain because of the wiring issues between the gauges, fuel pump, DBW and loss of cruise.

HP: LS6 6.0 385-400, LM7 5.3 285-295, LQ4 6.0 300-325, LQ9 6.0 345

Cost:

Cruise Control $300 (This is where you have to get an aftermarket kit and add it on.)

Dave from Novak is currently working on a new kit that will relocate the AC pump up to where the current relocation kit is, it will pull all the accessories in tighter, and it will allow you to use the Jeep power steering pump. This kit is not available yet, Dave is currently working on it, estimated price is as much as the current AC relocation kit or cheaper.

Cruise control is easy if you get a DBW motor. I made a simple switch panel with a toggle switch, two push buttons, and a LED. I tapped into the wires on the TAC module and the cruise control works perfectly and best of all it only cost me a few bucks for the buttons and switch.

I reused my old power steering lines to the chevy pump so I have nothing invested in my steering setup.

Sorry to butt in, but - If somebody wanted to do the 5.3/6.0 swap w/ a NEW engine, where would they look for the engine? Does anyone sell the complete engine, not just the long block?

I got my engine off Ebay (Bow Auto) they are up in MD. I had it dropped shipped to my house: total $1K shipped not bad for a guaranteed to run warranty and all the wiring and accessories included.

In my talks with Dave at Novak about getting cruise to work,

On the Gen III engines, you need to get the aftermarket module, and run a couple extra wires to make the cruise work, because they have a separate Throttle Control Module that you have to pull with the Gas pedal. Cruise or not you need the Throttle Control Module on all the Gen III engines unless you want to go with a throttle cable.

On Gen IV engines the PCM has the throttle control module built into them. These are much easier to get the cruise to work, you can get the cruise module and then you can use your stock steering wheel cruise stuff again. On the Gen IV engines, the aftermarket module literally plugs into the back of the throttle pedal like this: http://www.jk-forum.com/showthread.php? ... e-Response The issue you have to look out for on the Gen IV engines is the DOD Displacement On Demand, its like Chryslers MDS Multi-Displacement System where 4 of the cylinders shut off under light load. The other good part about Gen IV is the VVT Variable Valve Timing, it allows you to run some pretty radical cams and still keep a nice smooth idle.

Dave said in my particular case I would be able to keep my cruise actuator and reroute it back into the cab and use the end that normally pulls the throttle body open to the swapped in throttle pedal. This is a little unclear, but it sounds like I need to get the after market module for cruise either way if I want my stock buttons to work.

Dave advised me to get a Gen IV with VVT but NOT DOD.

Gen IVs are more expensive than Gen IIIs however.

I personally feel that since I already have the cruise control buttons I should use them since I think they look good and like the feel of them. The reason for the new accessories bracket is to:

A: make the A/C pump relocation cheaper, and use a more common A/C Pump.
B: Reuse your stock Jeep power steering box.
C: Relocate everything to a better location.

Again it's not out yet, Dave is working on it.


He's also working on an in house way to get the tach to work properly, he was saying that the tach actually does work sometimes, saying that while driving along all of a sudden it would shoot up and work for awhile. This was because it was getting a ghost signal off the flywheel.

Don't get me wrong I love a good V8 swap, unfortunately the technology just isn't here yet for it to be as streamlined as I want it to be for when I do the swap.