Need to clean the carbon

1622 Views 19 Replies 9 Participants Last post by SweetPee, Nov 20, 2010

Rockunlimited2

Discussion Starter · Nov 16, 2010

I swaped in new plugs this weekend, I took a quick look in the cylinders while the plugs were out, and it was solid carbon black. I pulled the air filter, the TB was also coated in black carbon. I looked down in the intake and it too was black. I just ordered a new AEM dryfow to replace the existing COI, and will be swapping it in when received. The question is; do I need to run a carbon cleaner like seafoam? I have been reading up on this and there seems to be two schools. One says the seafoam is the best thing since sliced bread, the other school says it is not needed and not good for the motor.

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SweetPee

· #2 · Nov 16, 2010

A lot of people swear by it. If you get time do a search for seafoam or "cleaner" on here with DoctorD as the author. You'll find some good reading/discussion on the subject. That said DoctorD states that most all of those cleaners are alike with similar cheap ingredients and do very little. DoctorD has also said the the pure Techron cleaner is about the only one on the market that actually does something and is worth buying. I believe he uses that or a GM dealer/service grade cleaner.

I use to run the Lucas cleaner and liked it, however after learning what the doc had to say, any benefit/good it dis was probably all just in my head. I now use the Techron bottle.

warsw

· #3 · Nov 16, 2010

I use the Seafoam. I run it through once a year. Works for me. I first started using it on my road bike. I could actually tell the difference. The motor would just run smother after a few tanks with Seafoam.

With the jeep it seems to do the same thing but I'm not so sure that most of it isn't just in my head. I do seem to get a lot of black stuff out the exhaust while I have the Seafoam in the gas so I figure it must be doing something.

With all the crap gas on the market now days I don’t think it hurts anything to run something through the motor once in a while to help it out a little IMHO.

'05TJLWBRUBY

· #4 · Nov 16, 2010

Two things-if your TB is that dirty, you're not keeping up with regular maintenance and your IAC will be horrendous as well-I'm kinda surprised you haven't had any idle issues with high/low idle and erratic response at this point. Every time I pull the plugs to change them, I clean the TB THOROUGHLY and re-install, along with IAC and everything else attached. I'd highly recommend it as part of your "standard" maintenance schedule. When you do pull it, having done MANY TB cleanings in the past, I'd recommend you pony up for the dealer brand TB cleaner. I've used tons of them from the parts stores in the past and for a really dirty TB, the dealer stuff just seems to be a stronger/more potent chemical that does a better job and makes cleanup of the REALLY dirty TB's that much faster/easier. Standard Napa type cleaners work well after that but for a first time cleaning, it's worth it to buy the dealer stuff. Get a good (old throw-away) toothbrush as well for the nooks and crannies.

Also, having been fighting a misfire issue for some time now, the dealer recommended I run some dealer brand "mopar combustion chamber cleaner" through my rig, followed by the procedure for cleaning the inside-which consists of getting the rig to full operating temp then pulling the air inlet hose at the TB and spraying in the full can of "mopar combustion chamber cleaner" nearly to the point of stall out but not quite, then once done, shutting the hood and letting "heat soak" in a warm garage with the hood down for 2-3 hours to penetrate. After penetration is complete, bring to operating temp, then run in 1st gear for manuals or "low" for autos to 4500rpms and hold there for 15 seconds, then pull over and let idle for something like 5 seconds then run to 4500rpms again for 15 seconds and repeat cycle 5 more times. After doing so, you SHOULD be clean inside.

I THINK this is the same basic principle as Seafoam, possibly the same chemical type but not sure on that. It is standard procedure for the dealer for ruling out certain things like carbon deposits that could lead an exhaust valve not to close properly resulting in misfire issues for our engines. Seafoam is basically the same type of thing. Think the can from the dealer was around $8.00 or so if i recall? If your's is as bad as you say, I'd do this for sure. A good cleaning along with new plugs and air filter will go a long way to making your rig happy again...

Best of Luck,

Mike

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wickedrubi

· #5 · Nov 16, 2010

hands down! its the only miracle in a can that really works! use it!

SweetPee

· #6 · Nov 16, 2010

[quote='05TJLWBRUBY]Two things-if your TB is that dirty, you're not keeping up with regular maintenance and your IAC will be horrendous as well-I'm kinda surprised you haven't had any idle issues with high/low idle and erratic response at this point. Every time I pull the plugs to change them, I clean the TB THOROUGHLY and re-install, along with IAC and everything else attached. I'd highly recommend it as part of your "standard" maintenance schedule. When you do pull it, having done MANY TB cleanings in the past, I'd recommend you pony up for the dealer brand TB cleaner. I've used tons of them from the parts stores in the past and for a really dirty TB, the dealer stuff just seems to be a stronger/more potent chemical that does a better job and makes cleanup of the REALLY dirty TB's that much faster/easier. Standard Napa type cleaners work well after that but for a first time cleaning, it's worth it to buy the dealer stuff. Get a good (old throw-away) toothbrush as well for the nooks and crannies.

Best of Luck,

Mike[/quote]

I'll second the idea of cleaning the TB on your jeep. It really is a huge source of some frustrating issues once it gets good and dirty, especially the IAC. But if you clean it while it is on the jeep like many of us do.... DON'T use the straws that come with the spray cans. Use a tooth brush.

bob1340

· #7 · Nov 16, 2010

Once you get it clean change your gas brand. Running gas with cleaners in it like the Chevron with Techron helps to keep the crud off the valve stems. Our valve train has a history of issues, worn cams/tappets. The crud on the valve stems just increases the probability of those issues. Keep them clean.

I have never been brave enough to run seafoam in a senor packed engine. I have used it on outboard motors and was amazed at what it did for them. I also have a 2.5 HP briggs that is 40-45 years old and it made that little motor run like a top.

'05TJLWBRUBY

· #8 · Nov 16, 2010

bob1340 said:
Once you get it clean change your gas brand. Running gas with cleaners in it like the Chevron with Techron helps to keep the crud off the valve stems. Our valve train has a history of issues, worn cams/tappets. The crud on the valve stems just increases the probability of those issues. Keep them clean.

This is excellent advice. Having had some fuel issues in both the Jeep and Subaru which was a direct result from running Safeway and Costco gas where you got the discounts for grocery purchase that add up real quick, I also had poor running conditions in both vehicles and the inside was horrendously dirty. Fought an 02 sensor issue for a long while as well-which was fouled. The one bit of good advice I ever got from a dealer was to use top-tier fuel as it had cleaners in it where the Costco and Safeway gas doesn't-at least in our area. Only reason they knew this was they had just returned from school on the subject and the guy who told me was a Chev guy who had dealt with all kinds of problems on the Blazers, Subs and trucks lately which all had one common theme-operators purchasing the cheapest fuel they could find-Safeway, Costco, Circle K, 7-eleven, etc. I've been running or mixing up Shell, Texaco and Chevron for the last few years now in both vehicles and haven't had a single issue since like before. Have torn down the TB's on both rigs a few times since and notice they are MUCH cleaner inside without as much buildup and last longer between necessary cleanings. Plug color has changed as well and they don't look as bad either from the fuel additives.

And, not to argue with SweetPee above, but if yours is as dirty as you say-I'd NOT want to clean that on the rig. Pull it off and do it off the vehicle, in or over throw-away tupper ware container of some sort, cottage cheese container, something of the like. When you see the resulting black nasty gunk that's in that container when you're done, you'll see why you don't want that back down in your engine. Also, you can't thoroughly clean it well using only a spray method and to really clean good, needs to be removed and every nook and cranny cleaned with a toothbrush to remove the stuck-on residue. Word of advice-buy your new gasket for around $4.00 ahead of time. Most places don't have it in stock but will get it next day. It's a 10 minute job that if you ruin your current gasket, could cost you overnight downtime waiting for the parts store to get the new one in.

Best of Luck,

Mike

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SweetPee

· #9 · Nov 16, 2010

[quote='05TJLWBRUBY]And, not to argue with SweetPee above, but if yours is as dirty as you say-I'd NOT want to clean that on the rig. Pull it off and do it off the vehicle, in or over throw-away tupper ware container of some sort, cottage cheese container, something of the like. When you see the resulting black nasty gunk that's in that container when you're done, you'll see why you don't want that back down in your engine. Also, you can't thoroughly clean it well using only a spray method and to really clean good, needs to be removed and every nook and cranny cleaned with a toothbrush to remove the stuck-on residue. Word of advice-buy your new gasket for around $4.00 ahead of time. Most places don't have it in stock but will get it next day. It's a 10 minute job that if you ruin your current gasket, could cost you overnight downtime waiting for the parts store to get the new one in.

Best of Luck,

Mike[/quote]

Oh I agree! Having it off the jeep is my prefered method as well... it really helps being able to manuver the TB the way you want and get into all the areas. Especially with the IAC.

Also FWIW... i got tired of always having to order a new gasket, at least the few times I have needed one. So what I have had good luck doing is getting a roll of gasket material and making my own. Nice sharp razor blade is prefered over anything else I have tried. A hole punch for paper works great for bolt holes. Get one traced and cut out the way you like and hold on to it so you can make more, it is super easy then. Cutting my own has not caused me any issues todate and my cut out gasket has been on there for over a year.

'05TJLWBRUBY

· #10 · Nov 16, 2010

SweetPee said:
[quote='05TJLWBRUBY]And, not to argue with SweetPee above, but if yours is as dirty as you say-I'd NOT want to clean that on the rig. Pull it off and do it off the vehicle, in or over throw-away tupper ware container of some sort, cottage cheese container, something of the like. When you see the resulting black nasty gunk that's in that container when you're done, you'll see why you don't want that back down in your engine. Also, you can't thoroughly clean it well using only a spray method and to really clean good, needs to be removed and every nook and cranny cleaned with a toothbrush to remove the stuck-on residue. Word of advice-buy your new gasket for around $4.00 ahead of time. Most places don't have it in stock but will get it next day. It's a 10 minute job that if you ruin your current gasket, could cost you overnight downtime waiting for the parts store to get the new one in.

Best of Luck,

Mike

Oh I agree! Having it off the jeep is my prefered method as well... it really helps being able to manuver the TB the way you want and get into all the areas. Especially with the IAC.

Also FWIW... i got tired of always having to order a new gasket, at least the few times I have needed one. So what I have had good luck doing is getting a roll of gasket material and making my own. Nice sharp razor blade is prefered over anything else I have tried. A hole punch for paper works great for bolt holes. Get one traced and cut out the way you like and hold on to it so you can make more, it is super easy then. Cutting my own has not caused me any issues todate and my cut out gasket has been on there for over a year.[/quote]

Great idea! Where do you buy your gasket material/what is it actually? We make all kinds of gaskets at work for about everything-one of those "why didn't I think of that" times... :banghead: Always have the material on hand and not have to order one. Good thinking!!!

Best of luck,

Mike

Red Dog Leader

· #11 · Nov 16, 2010

I like bacon....but it hurts. :laugh:

SweetPee

· #12 · Nov 16, 2010

[quote='05TJLWBRUBY]

SweetPee said:
[quote="'05TJLWBRUBY":314ez4kr]And, not to argue with SweetPee above, but if yours is as dirty as you say-I'd NOT want to clean that on the rig. Pull it off and do it off the vehicle, in or over throw-away tupper ware container of some sort, cottage cheese container, something of the like. When you see the resulting black nasty gunk that's in that container when you're done, you'll see why you don't want that back down in your engine. Also, you can't thoroughly clean it well using only a spray method and to really clean good, needs to be removed and every nook and cranny cleaned with a toothbrush to remove the stuck-on residue. Word of advice-buy your new gasket for around $4.00 ahead of time. Most places don't have it in stock but will get it next day. It's a 10 minute job that if you ruin your current gasket, could cost you overnight downtime waiting for the parts store to get the new one in.

Best of Luck,

Mike

Oh I agree! Having it off the jeep is my prefered method as well... it really helps being able to manuver the TB the way you want and get into all the areas. Especially with the IAC.

Also FWIW... i got tired of always having to order a new gasket, at least the few times I have needed one. So what I have had good luck doing is getting a roll of gasket material and making my own. Nice sharp razor blade is prefered over anything else I have tried. A hole punch for paper works great for bolt holes. Get one traced and cut out the way you like and hold on to it so you can make more, it is super easy then. Cutting my own has not caused me any issues todate and my cut out gasket has been on there for over a year.[/quote]

Great idea! Where do you buy your gasket material/what is it actually? We make all kinds of gaskets at work for about everything-one of those "why didn't I think of that" times... :banghead: Always have the material on hand and not have to order one. Good thinking!!!

Best of luck,

Mike[/quote:314ez4kr]

I get it at just the regular part store, advanced auto, autozone, napa etc... It usually comes in a roll and I usually have the choice between rubber or cardboard. I've only used the cardboard material. I think the rubber would be great, but a little harder to cut maybe and IDK that the hole punch idea would work. I've also made waterpump gaskets with it, but I usually coat it with a VERY thin layer of RTV first and let it set up a little just so the water doesn't soak through. I really don't know that it would if I didn't use the RTV, but it makes me feel a bit better and has worked thus far.

Rockunlimited2

Discussion Starter · #13 · Nov 17, 2010

Well heck. I guess I have a project for the weekend. I will pull the TB and clean it out and an considering the Mopar heat soak thing. Oh well, a couple hours in the garage.....with some beers........with tools............and a jeep......... sweet.

Oh and a quick tip if you are using the rubber gasket materal, use an empty bullet shell and a hard tap from a hammer on a solid surface to make the bolt hols in the gasket materal. Nice and round every time.

securekey

· #14 · Nov 18, 2010

What type of octane is everyone running? around here we have 87, 89 and 91... I can't remember where I heard this but someone told me to run a tank of the highest octane through it every couple months to clean things out... any harm in this?

Personally, I haven't tried it but then again I drive the jeep like a race car most of the time

SweetPee

· #15 · Nov 18, 2010

securekey said:
What type of octane is everyone running? around here we have 87, 89 and 91... I can't remember where I heard this but someone told me to run a tank of the highest octane through it every couple months to clean things out... any harm in this?

Personally, I haven't tried it but then again I drive the jeep like a race car most of the time

I run 89. The owners manual says to run nothing but 87 that you will gain nothing by running the higher octane. Will running a higher octane (93 where I'm at) do any harm... NO. However I dont think I would be putting in lets say 93 octane and then a bottle of octane booster that pumps it up to 103 octane. But I would venture to say that anything 95 and below will be fine. Not sure you will gain anything from it, and as far as it "cleaning things out" I really have no clue if that holds any truth to it or if that is just something people 'think'. I know I tend to want to think it helps clean things out, but in actuallity I have no real clue that it even does anything much less more than a good old bottle of Chevron Techron concentrate.

securekey

· #16 · Nov 19, 2010

SweetPee said:
Chevron Techron concentrate.

Where can you buy this product? I am in Canada btw

'05TJLWBRUBY

· #17 · Nov 19, 2010

securekey said:
SweetPee said:

Chevron Techron concentrate.

Click to expand...

Where can you buy this product? I am in Canada btw

Most Chevron fuel stations have it on the shelf, as to many hardware type stores, Fred Meyer, etc. It's a black bottle that may just say "Techron" on it, by Chevron. Forget the ratio-either 1/2 the can or the entire contents to the full tank of fuel. Supposed to help the injectors. If you run top-tier fuel, I don't THINK it's doing to do much for you. I've run a tank or two through my rig in it's 75K life so far and never noticed anything from it. What I DID notice a difference in was running non-top tier fuel and switching to top-tier Chevron, Shell or Texaco only. There is a difference in the cleaners in good fuel vs. what's in the cheap stuff. After what I dealt with, I won't run the cheap stuff again.

Best of Luck,

Mike

JimmyC

· #18 · Nov 20, 2010

SweetPee said:
I run 89. The owners manual says to run nothing but 87 that you will gain nothing by running the higher octane. Will running a higher octane (93 where I'm at) do any harm... NO. However I dont think I would be putting in lets say 93 octane and then a bottle of octane booster that pumps it up to 103 octane. But I would venture to say that anything 95 and below will be fine. Not sure you will gain anything from it, and as far as it "cleaning things out" I really have no clue if that holds any truth to it or if that is just something people 'think'. I know I tend to want to think it helps clean things out, but in actuallity I have no real clue that it even does anything much less more than a good old bottle of Chevron Techron concentrate.

The most important FACT...octane rating is the fuel's ability to preven knocking in an engine, nothing more, nothing less. If your engine does not knock with 87 octane, running anything higher will only lighten your wallet and elevate the levels of unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber/exhaust path. The idea that higher octane will do ANYTHING (for our engine is stock form) is false is reeks of an uneducated mind set. Do some research and you might be amazed at what you find.

Fun read about octane rating and octane boosters.... http://volvospeed.com/Reviews/octane_boosters.html

Rockunlimited2

Discussion Starter · #19 · Nov 20, 2010

Just finished removing and cleaning the TB, I would suggest this to anyone. The jeep did not have any issues prior to the cleaning, but the amount of black junk left on my workbech was amazing. When I work on small parts I always use an old baking sheet to keep the items together and clean over, the baking sheet I used looked like it was filled with water and copier toner. I could not beleive the amount of junk that came out of the TB. I took it for a spin after and everything seened fine, did not feel a differance but it is good to know it is clean. Going to pick up some techron today to run a tank thorugh it to help with the internals. I have a bott of seafoam, but I am holding off for now, I am concerned about the precats dealing with all of that junk, going to clean it slowly. How often can I run a bott of techron in my tank? evey tank for 5 tanks? or would it be better to run it one tank per month for the next 6 months and then every time I chnage oil? I fill my tank about once a week (87 oct with corn since it is the cheapest here) and I get about 200 miles per tank.

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SweetPee

· #20 · Nov 20, 2010

Rockunlimited2 said:
Just finished removing and cleaning the TB, I would suggest this to anyone. The jeep did not have any issues prior to the cleaning, but the amount of black junk left on my workbech was amazing. When I work on small parts I always use an old baking sheet to keep the items together and clean over, the baking sheet I used looked like it was filled with water and copier toner. I could not beleive the amount of junk that came out of the TB. I took it for a spin after and everything seened fine, did not feel a differance but it is good to know it is clean. Going to pick up some techron today to run a tank thorugh it to help with the internals. I have a bott of seafoam, but I am holding off for now, I am concerned about the precats dealing with all of that junk, going to clean it slowly. How often can I run a bott of techron in my tank? evey tank for 5 tanks? or would it be better to run it one tank per month for the next 6 months and then every time I chnage oil? I fill my tank about once a week (87 oct with corn since it is the cheapest here) and I get about 200 miles per tank.

Figured you would be amazed if you had never cleaned it before! I run the techron and you get about the same gas milage as I do. The techron has a suggestive interval rating but i dont remember what that is. Generally I run it every oil change or about every three months. Course if you use chevron gas, which is no longer availible where I am, I don't know that you would have to buy the techron additive at all as their gas has it mixed in already, allegedly any ways.

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